Sudden, immediate and even instant death. It doesnt get more damaging that that. Remember, people dont have health bars. One single shot from nea I never had much faith in a 9mm til that incident. Damage: 62. Better get that imagination under control, tough guy! The 45s power and bullet size vs. the 9 mm Luger round was In the technical language of ballistics engineers, the standard unit of measurement for a bullets mass is grains of metal, and depending on the manufacturer, a .7.62. can weigh in at 125 grains. Well my neighbor finally bought the pistol from him and turned around and qualified with it in front of the other deputy. I shot 8 watermelons, 4 for each gun. Theres enough money saved that Obuma can skim the money from the DOD and get his pay raise, retirement increase and anything else his little heart desires. Secondly, if you you tube ballistic testing of the 9mm and 45acp, lets say using Federal HSTs you will see that the 9mm round is more than capable and every bit as functional as the 45 in getting the job done. Copyright 2023 While the tissue affected by the temporary cavity isnt completely destroyed like that in the direct path of the bullet, it does suffer trauma, especially if the bullet travels past less-flexible parts of the body, like bone or dense organs like the liver, which can shatter or rupture from the shockwave. Circulatory collapse will result in significant deprivation of oxygen to the brain. 1SGT. Enter https://www.police1.com/ and click OK. Durys Gun Shop has served San Antonio and the South Texas region for half a century. Startle affect. Center Mass/head shots are guaranteed kills. Shooting light steel target that doesnt allow penetration at all vs a human body is a little bit different. Anyway great comments to all. The bullet had disintegrated his spleen and torn his aorta. I believe politics carries the most weight.The military sidearm is the least political concern as far as what other weapons are available for them.The beretta was a good example.Far from the best weapon compared to sig & glock,it got us a deal to put missles in Italy . While 9mm is not as good at killing men as the 45 Auto, it is smaller, lighter, cheaper, easier to handle, and allows more opportunities to miss the target.. ago Haha. Concurr on 45 and m14 . Taurus 45 I personally dont find much difference in recoil between a compact 9mm and compact .40 S&W; but I recognize and am sympathetic to other shooters who do. There were 3 casings in the bathroom and a couple of more in the living room 10-12 ft away. Lexipol. A more accurate equation is (terminal) Energy, defined as 1/2 the mass times the velocity squared. As long as YOU are comfortable with the choice, then Im happy for you! Of course there are but in general the .45 with its bigger slower round is the better choice for knockdown power. Thank you. For damage; within 50m against soft targets I want to say it goes 7.62 >.45 > 9mm. That alone could be a convincing argument to switch platforms. Handgun caliber and size is to each is own. Following the incident, significant changes were made to the firepower carried by agents, the body armor they wore and the incident response training they received. Well Obama wants his pay raise and his retirement increased. It enters the human body at energies approaching the speed of light and The kidneys separate this material from the blood. The quibble is over. Also my pattern emptying a clip rapidly against someone with a 9mm, Ill win that as well all day everyday! If you have been hit with any kind of bullet large, fast, expanding, or otherwise please fill out our survey about your experience after being shot. very obvious. I dont want a light fast bullet that will over penetrate and possibly injure or kill an unintended. The .22, meanwhile. Lets say it is winter and a large person is wearing very heavy clothing. In one case study of a 24-year-old man struck in the chest by a .40-caliber hollow-point pistol round, doctors found organ damage outside the direct path of the He is the current USPSA Carry Optics Colorado State Champion and most recently won 3rd place in Master Class at the 2022 USPSA Carry Optics National Championship. 45 standard velocity is 850 to 900 fps, NOT 500 fps. The biggest determining factors were and have always been budget and of course, what the inept FBI is carrying. Everything I understand and everything I have read and looked into if persons really going to throw down its going to be less than 15 yards and closer, at that point and Im just being honest I dont even use my rear sights once I get within 10 yards of a silhouette Im just going off at the front sight Focus and thats it, I compensate for the offset not using the rear sights by dropping the front sight a couple inches lower to anticipate the recoil and it is very accurate. Thanks. But only weighed 140 lbs then. What I saw in Korea during the Korean War was that the .45 ACP was the most deadly Fire Rate: 1,000 rounds/minute. A 9 is a great backup. The U.S. military collected reports of its effects on the first Viet Cong combatants to be shot with the bullet. The .50 It goes in a like a nail.. The round should be able to penetrate the body sufficiently to damage internal organs, even from less-than-ideal angles. I sort of like the Canik TP9v2, with Browning BXP xpoint 147 gr load. If these shootings have something in common, it is each and every one is different. 9mm and 45 ACP are popular for all the reasons listed above. Im in the process to actually buy one. The Glock 17/19 could be a possibility as well, though, as there are plenty of them already in the inventory, and the P320 also seemed destined for the FBI (which had similar requirements), but they suddenly settled on the Glock at the last minute. While massive trauma to the circulatory system can cause incapacitation, this takes time. Ballistics engineers try to balance speed, mass, and surface area to make the most effective round possible. Its a freaking tarantula. The earlier FBI testing left no doubt that tissue displacement was greater with the larger rounds. Take a look at the FBI stats on their testing of various pistol ammunition as well as other reputable studies. I am a classic ). A true warriors gun. I find the heavy slide helps with the .40 recoil and keeps the barrel from jumping. Then you missed. It also drops in Air Drops, rarely as Tier Chest loot, or very rarely spawn as Tier World loot. Do any one you know carry just ball rounds in their handguns? ;p, I think someone is living in Television land, get real you might have shot one or chased a couple but routinely is in make believe land, quit lying just to talk. .45 ACP FMJ doesnt normally make bad people flop to the ground instantaneously unless it hits the brain or spinewhich is probably what happened, given his skills. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding. Other than for general interest, this type of test is of little use in the scientific examination of firearms-related situations. For you to dissect their writings may be fun but not productive. The only reason law enforcement and, military use a 9mm is budget. You cannot make a man by standing a sheep on its hind legs. I have shot many different calibers. The objective of this study was to construct a I sure do love 45acp though. Love it. I am a Force Recon Marine with 10 years of advanced military training and have served 7 separate combat tours. He is the author of two published books on deadly force and an upcoming book on supervisory and municipal liability in law enforcement. Fired expert m14. In the technical language of ballistics engineers, the standard unit of measurement for a bullets mass is grains of metal, and depending on the manufacturer, a .7.62 can weigh in at 125 grains. and their caregivers describe a lifetime of chronic pain, repeated surgeries years after being shot, and challenges to everyday living that come from losing parts of vital organs, like a woman who has to buy her son, We are currently looking for shooting survivors to discuss their experience and their recovery. In my limited experience, shot placement is is the ultimate factor with any round. Circulatory collapse results from massive bleeding caused by bullet wounds primarily to the heart, other major organs or major blood vessels of the torso. It stood there looking at me. Looks like a Chinese-made toy gun. Its round is designed to not only kill the attacker but also to stop him in his tracks. Love reading your stuff. Much of the difference is You prefer the .45 for stopping power? What, is that like an every day occurrence? Cpl. Cyst fluid rich in lipids and inflammatory factors is a characteristic pathological manifestation of ACP and may play a very important role in hypothalamic injury caused by tumors. Greater tissue displacement is likely to lead to more blood loss. I have a Ruger American 9 mm full size and its twin in a 45 caliber, I will say yes the 45 caliber is a larger round with more in a way push behind it, but I totally agree with the proper placement of that round when firing is the deciding factor. He kicked in the door and she was able to disarm him ( He was lying next to the bathroom door. In the last 30 years, the FBI has moved from .38/.357 caliber revolvers to 9mm semi-automatics. There are tons of manuals and a ton of information so that you can write an informed post. The question isnt how many people die from being hit with a certain a round, but rather what do they do immediately after being hit?. Ive been training for 50+ years and continue to do so. 9mm, I carry 147 grain Hp. Come join the discussion about optics, gunsmithing, styles, reviews, accessories, classifieds, and more! I got it cheap and after using it and putting a few hundred rounds without any malfunction and also being very accurate. We need to dial back our expectations of how effective a pistol is, regardless of caliber, barring brain or spine shots. I can make a kill shot with just under 1 sec at 60 meters with my .45. The guys that could handle the .45, all preferred it. All three shots vital to heart and lungs. A tenured officer responded to a violent male mental on a *TD bus. I know a LEO that works in Mendocino County CA. If you need to kill someone with a single shot, a rifle is what you need, not a handgun.. Im no expert by the way but, I know that said air resistance on the nose of the bullet is NOT the predominate factor in any ballistics array. So In a effort to accommodate all soldiers they switched to a milder recoiling 9mm round. We are currently looking for shooting survivors to discuss their experience and their recovery. So they fudge the data. So banter on gentlemen. Lee reloading gear. The only gun I could get to in time was a Glock 17 loaded with 115 grn jhp ammo. I however still allowed to carry a 45 and, will as long as I am able to. While each of them has no direct bearing on incapacitation, they must all be considered. If Im in my own home in a self-defense scenario, at any distance, Im armed with a 12 gauge, and the whole pistol capacity and power debate is moot. You're Dead: 5 Deadliest Bullets In The World They're just as important as the gun that fires them. I believe you are in some way getting a kick back from someone, wanting to push the idea that the 9mm is more affective than the 45. Shooting survivors and their caregivers describe a lifetime of chronic pain, repeated surgeries years after being shot, and challenges to everyday living that come from losing parts of vital organs, like a woman who has to buy her son expensive protein shakes after he lost much of his stomach. It definitely doesnt mean the ability to kill the target. Fire Rate: 240 There are two effects of electromagnetic waves on human body. The difference Is not all soldiers are comfortable shooting the heavy recoiling 45 round. Ive hunted with both 9 and 45. Have you ever saw the wound track from a .230 hst. The projectile is losing velocity and arcing downward. But I do like Cor- Bon, and Glaser POWRBALL BY COR-BON. Because of the impracticality of training for headshots, this examination of handgun wounding relative to law enforcement use is focused upon torso wounds and the probable results. We had competant and caring armorers and shooting instructors ( These guys gave a fuck and went out of their way for you ). I settled on a 9-round single-stack .40 S&W that has almost identical dimensions to the same pistol in 9mm. Two shots were within an inch of his heart. Not everyone can adequately conceal a full-sized Colt 1911. Have fun be safe and shoot often for sport and recreation and maybe someday to save your life and loved ones! WebActually, three different types of pressure change appear: (1) shock wave pressures or sharp, high pressure pulses, formed when the missile hits the body surface; (2) very high pressure regions immediately in front and to each side of the moving missile; (3) relatively slow, low pressure changes connected with the behavior of the large explosive So its definitely capable. And speed causes expansion of bullets in a meat target. There are other similar handgun calibers, such as the .44 Special and the .45 Colt, and of course, the .357 SIG and 10mm Auto are There are many fine little Girls Guns in 380 cal. So, have you experienced shooting someone at close range with each caliber to determine the stopping power of each round? If I ever have to use my firearm to defend myself or my family, I want all of the energy from that round to be expended in the target. Going back and reading over your original post, by the by, I can only say this: Also, there are documented cases from New York and other law enforcement agencies of officers shooting criminals and having their bullets pass entirely through the criminal and striking a civilian bystander, thus wounding someone not engaged by the police officer. If, God forbid, you are ever in a situation where you are required to use your handgun, there is, to put it mildly, a great deal at stake. The mechanism by which adamantinomatous craniopharyngioma (ACP) damages the hypothalamus is still unclear. The door has been opened and shut for good on John M. Browning's classic 1911 design. Rookie year. 0.177" Steel air gun dart will penetrate to shank, in skin, at 120 ft/s. During each tour I was personally involved multiple combat engagements. I carry a 9mm on me at all times, and I feel it is adequate enough to do what I need from a handgun, but I have them loaded with 147gr JHP ammo. And thats hardly re-enacting a self defense scenario. Everywhere else, you have only a chance of incapacitating your target. He died in our E.R. Police, f.b.i., train. What will each round acco. Owned a model 29 .357 Ammunition can really change performance. However, I purchased the 9 mm because for a carry gun I feel safer with the style of firearm I bought for daily carry purposes. Practice thats all it takes. Having fired 45 ACP and 9mm at human targets the 9 took 3 sometimes 4 hits c.o.m. Four ribs had essentially turned to dust. I guarantee with proper shot placement, either round will do. It makes a bigger hole. So logically the 45 is more effective at stopping Humans, than the 9mm, data from lethal census. Its unlikely Id ever have to shoot at anything other than paper targets. Overall I enjoyed reading your piece and found it noteworthy that Smith&Wesson ( one of the great disappointments of this and the last century) was eliminated from the contract competition. .45 ACP damage increased from 35-40-65 to 35-40-75, and minimum damage decreased from 60% to 50%. What i find interesting is that so many people have so much to say and they have never been in actual shoot out. .45 Magazine type M1911 mag.45 ACP: Damage 1389 Blood: Fire modes Semi Shots to kill body: 3 head: 1 Effective range 50/100 m Rate of fire moderate Recoil Moderat Noise Moderate The two most important factors to consider, in order of importance, are penetration and permanent cavitation. A tool yes but not a valid substitute. So, as so many have said above, it depends on what you are comfortable with and what you plan to be doing with it. Due to the heavy load some people with both types of weapons had malfunctions as the slide was moving too fast causing failure to feed. Marine Force Recon Vietnam Vet. If you find yourself in a legitimate self-defense scenario, you will likely not have the opportunity nor the wherewithal to take a careful and well-aimed shot at your assailant's head. there again I drive a 502 Gasser for pleasure. The bullet that struck U.S. Representative Steve Scalise last week was traveling at somewhere between 1,100 and 2,600 feet per second. 125 gr 9 mm PB fully jacketed bullet will generally penetrate both skins of a car door. 7.62 isn't pistol ammunition though. and that the data you submit is exempt from Do Not Sell My Personal Information requests. They should provide officers who can control the larger weapons a choice about which pistol they are permitted to carry. Of the nearly 250 million guns owned by Americans at that time, somewhere between 40 and 50 million of them were handguns. While the classic .45 ACP round is large, its also relatively slow, with an average velocity of 850-900 FPS for most types of ammo. There are a number of factors involved, including physical, psychological and physiological, but human bodies are much more durable than is commonly believed. Still, the research is not widespread and a great deal of it is not terribly relevant for the average person searching for a reliable self-defense weapon. Although it should be noted that Glock is manufacturing in the US now, Sig Sauer is as well. The comments concerning shot placement are correct. How about a test sample of exactly the same bullet weight in a high impact L.E. I have had to fire both and knowing that the 9 mm is a lighter piece of lead compared to the 45 ACP it is all about placement then. The 9mm leaves the muzzle on average at 1100 feet per second, NOT 1500. They argue that the 9mm round has more penetrating power because the round faces less air resistance on its nose as it flies through the air. What kind of insane non-scientific reasoning is this? Japanese quail chicks in a studythe results They also have a budget. Was the 357 mag. and have shot that enough also to hit well with it. However I agree with you about a .22 in the right place is more deadly than a 50 in the wrong place. This recent policy change and operational change means the U.S. Marine Corps' special arm of SOCOM (U.S. Special Operations Command) has also come to terms with the debate of 9mm vs. .45ACP. My next handgun will be either a Ruger SR 1911 or a Kimber 1911 clone. I think its preference and if you can conceal it. Testing shows terminal ballistics of modern 9mm is virtually the same as the .40S&W or the older .45ACP round. But associates I worked with and against on jobs they all use one main gun to kill with the 9 mm with silencer. Glock 19 only playing catch up with those guns. After 22 years as a combat soldier, I am kind of partial to the .45 ACP, but I shoot modern, guide rod equipped with aftermarket sights, not rack guns. For members of the hand-cannon clique, toting a weapon loaded with anything less is just asking to be shot or killed by street punks who are feelin lucky.. An exit wound differs greatly from an entrance wound. Do your thing, your responsible for your actions! And the department is no small one. Hollow points are designed to rapidly expand after hitting a target, causing as much damage as possible and reducing the chance of overpenetration. The military is basing their decisions on dollars not dependability not the servicemans life! This makes rifle rounds significantly more damaging than their handgun counterparts. However, at 15 feet in your living room that is a concern regardless of what you are using unless you have a 22 or a 380. WebHuman Body 101 | National Geographic National Geographic 21.2M subscribers Subscribe 52K 3.3M views 5 years ago How does the human body work? A. H. Hassall, The microscopic anatomy of the human body Wellcome L0024128.jpg 1,100 1,796; 960 KB. The damage is often extensive, and not just for those who die. well lets fac the facts ere during th banna war the marines choose the 45 acp end of story. You may be knocked down and have to squeeze off a once and last shot to save you life. I also own both my fathers series 70 .45 (very accurate, low recoil due to mass, gunsmith tuned trigger that feels like butter, and extra fat grips) And a Kahr K40 (small, easy to conceal, but has a HORRENDOUS trigger pull and snappy recoil). There are far too many different considerations and circumstances between self-defense necessities and military/LE necessities to list in a comment section; but theyre important distinctions. Between 14 and 45 , flak jacket and 5 mag 20 7.76 stayed in shape. But what I am struggling to understand is some of the ludicrous logic coming fromvarious sides of the issue.
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